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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 14:31:42 GMT -7
I did a quick search, but I couldn't find a single article that explained the whole case from beginning to end. Everybody just reported on the news of the day, so you guys are stuck with my recap to the best of my memory. I don't promise to get it perfect, but I've been following this case pretty closely, so I think I have a decent grasp of the facts as they've been presented. Also I'm on my phone so please forgive my typos.  A 2 year old boy dies of meningitis. The news made a big deal of the fact that his parents had a home birth (so did I), didn't vaccinate (my kids have all their shots), treated with home remedies before taking the kid to the hospital (you should look up the case just to read the comments on how awful home remedies are, people are vicious) (I never take the kids to the doctor unless I think it's very serious) The time line as I understand it : Kid gets sick Parents watch and wait Kid gets better Patents breathe a sigh of relief Kid gets sick again Parents visit a naturopath (sp?), buy several treatments, give said treatments to the kid Kid gets better Kid gets sick again Friend who is a nurse says it could be meningitis even though kid doesn't have classic symptoms, he does does have symptoms that present in a small percentage of cases Parents take kid into non-emergency clinic, don't tell whole truth (lie? I'm not clear on this part) to doctors, doctors diagnose flu (very common with meningitis) Kid gets really fucking sick Parents take him to emergency Kid dies 2 days later in the hospital. Parents charged and convicted with failing to provide the necessities of life. Maximum sentencing. (5 years jail, loss of other children, rehab and programming) My issues. I believe alternate medical choices should be legal. I had 2 illegal homebirths and 1 legal one. Other than the fact that legislation changed between my last 2 pregnancies, there were no differences in my the care I received. Had the unthinkable happened, I do not believe that I should have been jailed had one of those births ended in a loss of life. I believe in vaccination, I do not think that those who believe different should be prosecuted, even if their chosen die from a preventable disease. They took the kid to a naturapath (very controversial here), had him seen by a friend who was a nurse and took him in to non - emergency. And when his condition worsened they took him in to emergency. I don't see how they denied him the necessities of life. If they had refused all help perhaps, but even then, they wanted him to very better, they were not being neglectful, at worst in my mind, they were too hands off work am unknown illness (that will be my crime) and they used natural remedies (not my crime, but something I feel should not be a crime either) |
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kissy
OG
I want a new drug...
Posts: 855 
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Post by kissy on Apr 28, 2016 16:14:22 GMT -7
I agree with you. They sought medicinal treatment. Seems to me the non emergency doc may have screwed the pooch by giving the wrong diagnosis.
Now, I've seen cases where parent prefer to pray rather than seek medical treatment. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 17:09:26 GMT -7
I think my biggest issue is that life is unsure at the best of times. People die.
I'm very uncomfortable with the government telling me exactly what set of boxes must be checked in order to be considered not culpable for a person's death.
If one of my home births had ended in death, who's to say if that same death wouldn't have happened in a hospital? I trusted my midwife 1000 times more than I trusted the GP in charge of my case.
Meningitis is frequently misdiagnosed as the flu. You need a spinal test to accurately diagnose it. I've never taken my kids in for the flu, if I don't believe the doctors can do more than prescribe fluids and rest, I don't go to see them. Should I go to jail if I misinterpret their symptoms?
This conviction bothers me mostly because of the precedent it sets for every one who doesn't rush to the hospital for every minor ailment, some of whom will mistake a serious issue for something minor,but I disagree that they should be held criminally liable.
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 17:17:42 GMT -7
We have had a couple of big cases of parents allowing children to die because of religious reasons that were found not guilty. One was a native family where the little girl had cancer and they refused modern medicine in favour of Natural remedies, the little girl died. There was also a case of a Jehovah witness family with a small child that needed blood, they refused and he died.
I suppose a large amount of my issue stems from the idea that alternative medicine is only consisted acceptable if you are religious. But us heathens must always follow government regulations whether we agree with them or not
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Post by ronin on Apr 28, 2016 17:26:39 GMT -7
The first time I was called in for jury duty, the case was a couple who were suing a doctor who didn't diagnose meningitis fast enough to save their son's life. The doctor's attorney explained the path the diagnosis took to get to meningitis, and it was the first time in my life I considered that medicine is not an exact science. I didn't get picked for duty, but even that little piece of the story fascinated me.
I don't know about you, but all I get out of taking my children to the doctor for "flu-like symptoms" is 2-3 hours of my time wasted and a hasty cold or flu "nothing we can do about it" explanation. I don't think those parents would have gotten anything different.
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 17:29:12 GMT -7
I honestly believe that our system forces someone to be at fault for every death. Sometimes I think life just sucks, it's not someone's fault
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Post by nomorewirehanger on Apr 28, 2016 18:19:39 GMT -7
I had a gut check moment last night when P busted her jaw. It was a decent sized cut. And I was fairly certain it could be closed up with steri strips. But L and I conferred via text and with pictures back and forth for an hour before I decided ...well better bring her in. Because the "what if" folks will have zero issue calling the law on you in this world. I really resent the fear of busy bodies pressuring modern day parents to seek what is more times than not? Unnecessary medical treatment. I don't think these parents did anything neglectful. They did seek treatment. One could argue that had the baby been vaccinated for meningitis he wouldn't have gotten it, but that's a BIG "what if." I know people who have been vaccinated for chicken pox and still gotten it. Hell I've HAD chicken pox, vaccinated against shingles when I worked in a medical office.
Still got shingles. Shit happens.
There is a case nearby where the community at large there is calling for a mother's head. Her four year old was in the backyard playing. She was doing housework inside. He was playing on his dads BBQ (a no no that he knew about) and it wasn't secure and fell and crushed him. These well meaning citizens want that mother in jail and her children taken away. And it made illegal for kids to be unsupervised ever. And I'm thinking...fucks sake it was an ACCIDENT. tragedies happen! Illnesses happen. Smh.
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 18:57:19 GMT -7
We had a case where a woman had Family services called on her because she let her 3 children play outside in their fenced back yard unsupervised. It ultimately ended up with her being exonerated, but it sets a dangerous precedent. Nobody seems to be willing to live outside the bubble anymore, and what's worse they want to make it illegal for anyone else to take reasonable risks
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Post by smokinghorse on Apr 28, 2016 19:10:44 GMT -7
My only issue is that, from what I read, their nurse friend told them that they should go see a doctor for meningitis. A second nurse advised them to do the same when they called her for extra strength natural immunotherapy homeopathic drugs. In fact, the mother told this nurse they were worried about meningitis. The kid's mom did the diagnostic home test where you have them put their chin to their chest, and look for involuntary movement in the legs. It was positive. She told the police that they suspected meningitis, but were betting on the viral, rather than bacterial, form. And finally, by both parents' admission, when they went to the naturopath for heavy immuno-stimulant supplements, the little guy was too stiff for them to get him into his carseat, so they somehow tethered him to a mattress instead. They sought medical help only when he stopped breathing.
I agree with the premise that government can be too intrusive. I also believe that there are thousands of studies that support the fact that midwife homebirth is actually LESS risky for normal pregnancies. There are far fewer incidents of infection or morbidity/mortality outcomes with unnecessary modern OB interventions. Vaccinations are the other end of the spectrum, they save lives. No doubt. It irritates me no end that anti vaxers only have that option because the rest of us are reasonable, rational people who immunize their children so that non-vaccinated kids are rarely exposed to the diseases that could kill them.
As for those who have moral or religious reasons that preclude medical intervention? I don't get it. Never have. Never will. I think it's short sighted and it should be illegal for parents to refuse medical treatment for completely curable conditions until those children are of an age where they can understand and consent.
I understand the concept that some deaths are simply a sad fact of life or a horrible fate. But if this little boy had been my kid? My Mommy Alarm Bells would have been ringing. Loudly. I know that hindsight is 20/20, and I know I wasn't in their shoes. But all the articles I read said that he showed warning signs of more than the flu, and when two medical professionals were wary of the exact condition he ended up dying from, I think they should have known better.
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Post by smokinghorse on Apr 28, 2016 19:17:09 GMT -7
We had a case where a woman had Family services called on her because she let her 3 children play outside in their fenced back yard unsupervised. It ultimately ended up with her being exonerated, but it sets a dangerous precedent. Nobody seems to be willing to live outside the bubble anymore, and what's worse they want to make it illegal for anyone else to take reasonable risks I hate this. I've heard stories similar to this one. Over the top. My 9 year old walks home from school. He also takes walks alone. I hate that I could get in trouble for this. I also really hate that I've been conditioned to believe that it's unsafe, and have to willfully make myself not worry the whole time he's gone. |
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 19:20:58 GMT -7
If this little boy had been mine, he would have been at the doctor as well. I actively avoid all sorts of homeopathic treatments, I fully vaccinate. My contention is that relying on such, or relying on prayer, or relying on traditional native healing, or refusing blood transfusions, or avoiding western pre-natal care in favour of midwifery... They're all eschewing modern western medical advice. I agree with some, disagree with others and strongly dislike others. But I don't want any of them to be illegal. Unless you are specifically trying to hurt or neglect your children, but honest attempts to care for your kids to the best of your abilities from your own world view, should not be illegal
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Post by nomorewirehanger on Apr 28, 2016 19:22:55 GMT -7
Ah. See. ... if they were flat told by their naturopath that meningitis was highly probable? Yea. No. I agree with you on vaccines Abs. Much to the chagrin of all my happy lovely hippy mama acquaintances.
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 19:35:16 GMT -7
I agree that vaccines are a good idea. I do not want to see those parents who don't agree incarcerated or have their children removed. Our forcibly vaccinated against Gujarati parents wishes. If rather see aggressive educational campaigns with honest facts and risks, not a bullshit campaign trying to scare the lowest demographic
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Post by smokinghorse on Apr 28, 2016 19:50:20 GMT -7
If this little boy had been mine, he would have been at the doctor as well. I actively avoid all sorts of homeopathic treatments, I fully vaccinate. My contention is that relying on such, or relying on prayer, or relying on traditional native healing, or refusing blood transfusions, or avoiding western pre-natal care in favour of midwifery... They're all eschewing modern western medical advice. I agree with some, disagree with others and strongly dislike others. But I don't want any of them to be illegal. Unless you are specifically trying to hurt or neglect your children, but honest attempts to care for your kids to the best of your abilities from your own world view, should not be illegal I totally respect your opinion, and understand what you're saying. The truth is it's a slippery slope going both direction. My fear is that, "not trying to neglect or hurt" and considering one's world view as a criteria are just too subjective for my taste. Female genital mutilation, for instance, is well within those parameters. You could argue for almost any mistreatment if you justify it with your personal, deeply held belief that, "I sewed all their mouths shut because children should be seen and not heard." I'm much more frightened of zealots misusing and perverting religious freedom than I am about my government trying to enforce parental responsibility. Both of them are worth keeping in check, though, for sure. And I love that, even as I'm typing this, I'm thinking about how it relates to the personal freedom vs. government monitoring and information gathering debate. Which I take the exact opposite stance on, of course. Why can't life hand me something easy? |
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Post by KyLady on Apr 28, 2016 19:58:10 GMT -7
I'm not saying it's an easy line to find, and to be honest, I'm not even sure where I stand on every issue. I just have a hard time with everyone's line seeming to be drawn in their neighbours backyard, if that makes sense.
You bring up female genital mutilation, but in western countries it's typically done in a form that is no worse than male circumcision, the tips of the outer labia are removed, that's all. I happen to be very very anti male circumcision, but I don't feel that parents should be incarcerated for it, should the western female version be illegal but not the male? Why? Who gets to decide which unusual practices are illegal and which are not?
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